Meet Dr. Jo: ACT, Inflexibility, and Therapy in Baltimore
- b'well counseling
- Nov 5
- 13 min read
Video transcript:
Jake: So it’s good to be back for another B’well meet the therapist interview. Today I'm excited we’re talking to Dr. Jo. So you know I've always thought about these as just an opportunity for people to long form hear who you are, what kind of work you do, what gets you excited about doing this work. When people are searching for therapists in the corners of the internet that they find themselves in, it can just be kinda nice to hear someone’s voice and get to know who they are and feel like they know who the person is, that parasocial relationship before they reach out to even have the consult. So I'm excited that we're all set down here to have this conversation today.
Jo: Me too.
Jake: So let's launch right in with what Nia’s coined my favorite question. Which is what's your client Venn diagram? What are the sort of overlapping areas of work that you find yourself working with most.
Jo: Yeah so I have a lot of different kind of parts. I start at the top with my type A individuals. That has a big overlap with people just getting poor sleep. Almost completely overlapped with that are my parents right because there's something going on, we're not getting the sleep we need.
Jake: Yeah.
Jo: Then that overlaps with the LGBTQIA+ population, my endometriosis, and then people kind of just coming in with anxiety, depression, stress. And kind of in the center of all this is something’s not working. Things aren't going the way I want them to do, somethings not feeling right and that's the, little yeah.
Jake: What I know of you that that tracks so perfectly that you've got that chain is so neatly linked whereas.
Jo: Type A personality is coming out.
Jake: Yeah, where I think mine is a string of chains. I so appreciate that about you, got it so clear, who you work with, who those what those areas are.
Jo: Great favorite question Jake.
Nia: Feels organized in a way too, where it doesn’t have to be when they come in, but...
Jo: Yeah I think that’s a lot of my superpower, I can kind of take this disorganized mess and see the patterns and lay it out in a way that’s a little bit simple or more simple.
Nia: Yeah, what brings people in? You kinda already named it, but what I don’t know if there’s like specific experiences or emotions.
Jo: Yeah, I have this mix of people. I have some people who’ve never done therapy before and they’re just like I wanna try something out, or people who’ve done therapy before and they’re maybe looking for something that's more skill-based and just kind of process it. Or I have a lot of people who have done CBT in the past and they're like kind of but not quite and ACT’s usually a much better fit for those people. And again in the middle of that is all the idea of something doesn't feel the way it should, and that's always my like aim to be like okay can we notice what your mind’s saying and how you're shutting yourself there. And if I can get them to like smile or laugh a little bit at that that's always an in at like this is how we can change your relationship to what you're thinking what you're feeling and what's going on.
Nia: Yeah, we’ve talked about ACT a lot, you and I, and just like if it’s the values work you love doing or if it’s the acceptance and the like putting it in places that feel good, but also watching out for the shoulds. So it’s yeah, something I’ve learned about you and your work.
Jo: Yeah it’s, flexibly inflexible. And I think that’s such a good fit for like that Venn diagram of people of like, we need to make some order out of things and also be okay with the chaos of life, and finding those sweet spots.
Jake: Thank you for that follow up Nia because as the, I guess the the least ACT-oriented person in the room, I always find it so refreshing to hear from both of you. That flexibly inflexible thing, you know when I can be like water until the shape of the container I'm in so frequently. Jo I want to I want to move a little bit into why you do this work. Like what's your why what's the thing that gets you excited about being a therapist?
Jo: Yeah, I have literally always been that person where if I sit down next to a stranger, I will stand up 10 minutes later with their life story. That's just always been a natural ability of mine, to connect with others, and I've always been drawn towards this idea of ameliorating suffering and helping people serving others. And so psychology has always been this really natural meeting point for me of my interest in flexible science and research all of that good stuff, and using that to help people live the lives that they deserve. And so this is always been, since I was a kid, where I wanted to end up.
Jake: I, as somebody who also my whole life it just felt like a natural extension of the things that I was interested in, and was for me it felt like actually getting into the work feels so different than I thought it would be. I'm curious what your experience was. Is this what you would imagine when you were that the young the younger version of you thinking about this is literally like to be a therapist, or has that evolved and changed over time?
Jo: I think it’s evolved a lot over time. I think even what I thought of therapy as a little kid, and kind of being,I have a parent who’s a psychologist, kind of seeing the clinical side of things, from like a pastoral-counseling approach was interesting and learning how some people approached it. And then kind of going through college majoring in Psychology, learning about one way. Beginning of grad school is very CBT-focused and then had it moved into ACT, so it's been this growing understanding and finding the place where I fit and can do the most good.
Nia: Yeah, and in that it’s like there’s some moving pieces, but there’s always that anchoring piece I feel like with your work, and who you are, what you bring to sessions.The work, the table, in general and how good, how well you connect with people I feel like.
Jo: Yeah thank you, I think it's nice having that part. Even as the approaches change and what I’m learning changes, who I am kind of stays consistent in the therapy room.
Nia: What does a session look like with you? What does therapy look like with you?
Jo: Yeah, so I think that kinda changes over time and day-to-day. So usually my first couple sessions with somebody I'm asking a lot of questions. I'm getting to know who they are, what's bringing them in, what are the historical factors that we need to go over, are there other psychosocial components to what’s causing their stress, that like might to them seem mundane and to me can be really meaningful. And so getting a sense of where they are, what they're looking for. And then I really see therapy as two experts coming together. So I'm the quote unquote expert on ACT right. I read the books I studied blah blah blah. And the client’s the expert on them, they know who they are, what they tried, what they're willing to try, what they're not willing to try. And my goal is for us to combine our expertises, so that by the end of therapy they know what I know, they know how to take the skills that I have and apply them to their life in a way that works for them. And so the first half or so therapy I'd say I'm a little bit more guiding to make sure we're kind of getting those skills getting that Foundation set. And as therapy goes on it's more and more lead by the individual. What they need, what skills they want to review, things they want to talk about and all of that's flexible to what's going on at the moment. Cause if someone comes in and they’re in crisis, they just had the worst day of their life, they’re not in a place to receive skills, we're not doing that today, we're going to focus on where you are and what you need. So kind of structured, but also very tailored so that therapy is always a support.
Nia: Yeah, that beautiful mix of, again the structure the flexibility, meeting the client where they are really.
Jo: Flexibly inflexible.
Jake: Yeah I’m just picturing I come in having had the worst day of my life and somebody hands me a work sheet, I'm out.
Nia: Yeah it’s like, what do we do with that?
Jo: I mean sometimes for my type A people that’s exactly what they need, give me a worksheet, help me write this down, help me process it. And sometimes they want that A+ and they’re like tell me what to say how to do it, I’m like nope, no worksheet for you today. Let’s talk about it, let’s change how we’re relating to it.
Jake: Yeah I should talk to my therapist about that response that I just did. This question in some ways feel grandiose that as if we have to be inspired in order to do this work every day but, what is it that keeps you inspired? What's the what's the thing that keeps you motivated to keep wanting to show up and doing this work when, I don't know, it's not a secret that being a therapist is hard work.
Jo: Yeah there's something about when you meet with somebody and they're just going through that tough spot, and they're, like this is harder than it should, I can't handle this. And you know that they can. You know that they have this ability that they don't even recognize to put in the effort, to make changes to their lives about how they feel, about what's going on within them and around them. And getting to be with them on that journey and see them start to realize that it's not therapy, it's them. They have these skills, they're applying the skills, they're taking the time to come here and talk about things and change their life, and just being part of that journey is magical.
Jake: I know it feels so cliche to say oh it's magical or it's inspiring, but it is. Yeah it's so, it's so neat to look back when you get that opportunity to be retrospective with someone. I look back and see, wow when I met you, this was not how you were talking about things. This is not how you saw your life, your relationships, your job, yourself. And now listen to you. It’s a really remarkable thing.
Jo: Yeah it’s huge. Or like wow you just went through a giant stressor that, six months ago, would have had you on the floor collapsed. And now you just handled it like it's nothing. You did it, you went through it, you processed it, you felt it, you dealt with it and you moved on.
Jake: Yeah I won't get into too many of the details of it but you told me a story of a client that you know when they first came in were just feeling completely overwhelmed, discombobulated in so many ways. And they had this massive, life altering event happen and they were, but I'm good, I’m handling it well. I'm, you know frequently that that seems like a what's, what am I missing, what didn't happen. But you said the more that you talk to them they’re really just reusing the skills and they were holding this thing so much more flexibly I guess.
Jo: Yeah, it’s not that they weren’t upset by the event, it’s not that it wasn’t stressful, that is was an unpleasant feeling. It’s just they had the space to say okay, I have these feelings and I’m acknowledging them and they’re part of my experience, and they’re not my whole experience. And I can choose what I’m going to focus on, what’s important to me, how I wanna respond. And that’s what I put my energy in, instead of getting caught up with all these internal experiences. And that to me is just, I get chills.
Jake: What did I say right before we started filming this, that we’re not in the happiness business, we're in the full range of human emotions business. So frequently that's the hangup is, I don't feel good about this thing. Well yeah because it's bad you should feel bad about it and that's okay. I think about Marsha Linehan saying that most of our distress comes from denying reality, and maybe that's a segway into the acceptance part of ACT.
Nia: Yeah yeah I think with with the ACT, again I'm going back to ACT, but with the acceptance piece, the values work, the choice in it, and the agency that you really help people see it seems like. And yeah, offering that as like, this is something we can come back to, this is something we can hold and help guide.
Jo: And kind of that idea of control too like there are some things we can control and there's a lot of things out of our control and the more we can name them and say what they are, the more freedom gives us.
Nia: Absolutely. Okay so we’ve talked about the feels, the therapy feels, the magic of it all. What about the challenges that you’ve faced maybe in the therapeutic room or just as a therapist.
Jo: One thing I’m kind of adjusting to now is being back in small basically in the therapeutic room or just as a therapist yeah one thing I'm kind of adjusting to now is being back and small Baltimore. So last time I practiced was out of state, and I remember now I'm going to see my clients on the street, I’m going to go somewhere and I’m going to bump into them. And my protocol is always if I see someone, if they want to come up and say hi, they’re more than welcome, and I'm never going to approach them. And so trying to make sure with every client I'm like hey this is my protocol, I'm not snubbing you, it's up to you. Just because I have that fear I’m going to see someone and not acknowledge them and they're going to be hurt by that.
Nia: Yeah the mindfulness of it, and respect,so that’s been...
Jo: It’s a balance, yeah. Like how do you respond to the person, and yeah.
Nia: Okay.
Jake: I don’t know about you, I’ve certainly had the experience where I get pretty deep into a conversation with someone, maybe even someone I've worked with for a while. I go, I think I know exactly who you’re talking about because I went to school with them, or because they were my neighbor.
Jo: Yes, that’s happened. And you’re like okay, I just want to acknowledge right now that we have a little bit of an overlap here so, I’m not going to say anything to these people I just wanna let you know that I think I might be able to recognize some of these names you’re giving me here.
Jake: Yeah.
Nia: Yes.
Jake: I’ve talked with a lot of therapists from other areas of the country or you know in other cities and I think in so many ways Baltimore is a small town right and it's a lot more like practicing therapy in a rural area than it is like a decent sized metropolitan area because of these exactly you're talking these like deep, Smalltimore overlaps.
Jo: If you talk to anyone from Baltimore you can find at least like three degrees of connection.
Nia: Yes, or even like clients who maybe you’re seeing like friends of like a client and another very close client. But it’s not close enough where you can’t work with both of them.
Jo: Yeah absolutely. I’m always willing to draw that line of, okay this is too close, I don’t want any conflict of interests, and then there’s always that kind of like, right on the edge.
Nia: Yeah. I'm curious is there anything else that you would like to let people know about yourself, your work, what you offer, what you hold?
Jo: I think we’ve covered a lot of good stuff. I'm just kind of encouraging people to be brave coming to therapy’s really uncomfortable a lot of the time. Especially in the beginning talking to someone new, whoever it is, hopefully it's me, and my thing is that it's always about connection so if it's not me let me help you find somebody let's find what's right for you and give yourself that opportunity.
Nia: Absolutely yeah thanks so much for sitting down with us. Yeah is there anything else that you would like to...
Jake: I'm so biased right, I think that we have the greatest team in the history of ever, in any place in the world.
Jo: I recommend people to other clinicians here all the time, like my friends and family, like oh, meet with so and so they’re gonna be a great fit for you.
Jake: Yeah and so I'm just so so grateful that you're part of our team, so grateful that you’re a part of our team. I feel grateful to be a part of this team. And so we'll have all of the the contact information at the end of the video for people to reach out to Dr. Jo.
Jo: Do the free 15 minute consult so we can see what’s a fit.
Jake: Yeah, I’m waiting for somebody to do a consult with every therapist in our group, just to see.
Nia: That’d be so interesting.
Jake: Wouldn’t that be so interesting? That’d be so cool to, I've always felt like that's one of the things that matters most to me is that fit is so important, the literature tells us that fit is so important. And so I think it's it's such a unique quality of ours is that I saw, every time I do a consult with a new client, I say I need you to talk to at least one other person in our group, just to see. It might still be me, that’s fine, but talk to Dr. Jo cause you might need the type A person. I'm not your guy. So that's yeah I just I feel so grateful that we get to operate in that way and that we get to provide that level of care to people because it is, it's very much on purpose. It's very intentional that I want people to land with the person that is gonna be the most helpful to them and for a lot of people that’s gonna be you.
Jo: Yeah. Well I think this environment here is really great too. So hopefully people get a chance to come in and check us out.
Nia: Yeah. Awesome.
Jake: We’ll call it a day there! Thanks for sitting down with us Jo, Nia thank you as always for everything you do.
Dr. Jo has expertise working alongside the LGBTQIA+ community, as well as individuals with “Type A” personalities, endometriosis warriors, individuals on parenthood journeys, and those working through anxiety, depression, and insomnia. She uses acceptance and values based approaches to create a welcoming, supportive, and safe space for everyone she meets. You can learn more about Dr. Jo, her approach to therapy, and ACT therapy in Baltimore on our website. To schedule a 15 minute consult with Dr. Jo to see if she is a good fit for you, click this link.
To inquire about or join Dr. Jo's Endometriosis Support Group, click this link.
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